Wednesday, March 14, 2012

WARNING: Say No to Unlimited Sub Accounts


Be careful not to shoot the messenger, but we now appear before you with a warning you should consider and a potential Tale of Woe. Many potential Dust 514 players that are veterans of the PS3 have voiced their concerns with the prospect of unlimited alternate accounts with good reason, they have seen their devastating negative effects up close. Doubt this at your peril. With the recent F2P announcement (which was great news, by the way) there simply has to be a system where accounts are not only regulated and managed, but possibly also tied to a Master (the first account setup for Dust) that can be revealed online by running a simple search via a web application similar to what API keys in EVE Online offer.

In a F2P world extras cost you, and let's face it they should. Allowing unlimited alt accounts is almost stealing if you consider the model, you've already gotten game access and a single account for free. Users that want more should have to pay for it. Sometimes complete and total freedom isn't freedom at all, sometimes its CHAOS.


Sub Accounts: Dear God..not this again. That sound you hear is my screaming and smashing my head against a brick wall. So I guess we should define it just to make sure. Yeah I know YOU know..but the other guys just got here, so we gotta review. The sub account is ANY and ALL accounts that are used SPECIFICALLY on any PS3 (not talking about any other kind here) that are added UNDER the main account that allow for online gameplay. Yeah.. i know. No big deal.


Until you get a game like Dust 514. Originally, the idea to charge $20 per player was a good thing in my opinion because it would have been a step in the right direction toward keeping a single person from "playing all sides against the middle". Or from simply playing all sides. If a player wanted to have 3 accounts, the idea that he or she would pay 60 bucks for the privilege of leveling up three separate mercs three times as slow as a person with one merc was just fine with me. There would have been very few children or "horrible" gamers willing to waste an extra 40 bucks on griefing or team-killing or whatever it is they intended to do. You wanna do espionage and infiltrate some clan you are enemies with? Great..20 bucks. That right there should have filtered out about roughly 60% of the "grief" associated with online team gaming.

 Want a sample of the havoc sub accounts can reap? "Oh this? This is my main account where I level up..this is my sub account where i go in and fuck over this faction, for free because I can... this is my OTHER sub account where I go in and fuck over this rival clan, for free because I can." In fact I dare say sub accounts could be a standard mode of operation in the game. How mad will you be when the random ally next to you turns and jackhammers your (insert expensive asset here) followed by a "lol" while he logs off to other account to really enjoy the benefits of his treachery? Clans could deal with it slightly easier then casuals but look at how bad it is on BF3 forums.

The removal of the twenty dollar Cover Charge is a scary, scary thing my friends. Without a lotta dead horse kicking, I will repeat my mantra: "Sub accounts killed MAG". It wasn't the squad limit, it wasn't the lack of clan support. It was the sub accounts. As was pointed out multiple times to the Devs, what is the point of creating a "War" with tangible assets to be won when the person you just beat for those same assets can simply log off, log back in under a sub account and have access to them? TOTALLY defeats the purpose. Yes, yes... I understand that you want to "experience" as much as you can of the game. But sometimes in life, it's best to take what you are given and accept it. By having multiple accounts, any esteem or integrity that the game could have had, any respect that could have been gained for being "good" at the game is lost. The last game where the players actually had respect for the game and players who played it was BF2:MC. Everyone wants to be a winner. But in order for one group to win, another must lose. The inability of the casual console gamer to accept this simple fact caused the Devs at MAG to open the floodgates and thus... the slippery slope was started and the game ruined.

Sub accounts in a game like Dust 514 will be the worst decision made in console gaming history. Not only because the PS3 players will feel the effects, but because the game is tied by a digital umbilical cord to EVE, a game that has a solid fanbase, so you run the risk of upsetting a "world" that took 6 years to get to its current state. Not just the combat, not just the corps but the economy. Imagine the stock market. Now imagine every trader on the floor can operate as two other ghost traders and trade against him/herself or even against his own company in real time. Well Golly Gee! Two of me went bankrupt today but the third one of me broke a couple million! Now if everyone is doing that we run into two very big problems: One the market is fake, so it's only a matter of time until it collapses. But worse..if it ever comes back online, I can't work with any of you because I can't trust you! And that right there, big babies..is what will happen to Dust 514 if alts are allowed to run rampant.

I told you guys a while back: one of the main components of 514 that gets very little mention is the element of TRUST that will be required in order to operate."Awww Bassmeant... you're taking it too seriously! Again! As usual!" Well... I haven't decided how much money to put in the game. Or if I will. But the thing is, I can and it won't be that big a deal. I can't speak for others, in the sense that some kid may have worked REAL f'ing hard to save enough REAL WORLD money to dump fifty bucks in the game. And that fifty bucks may mean quite a lot to him/her. But now with sub accounts, the risk of that player having that fifty bucks turned into a giant pile of team-killed wreckage in a public room will be EXPONENTIALLY greater.
Nothing in any kind of tutorial will fix that. If a casual gamer makes the effort to try a game like Dust 514 and finds his investment totaled by some no-namer with 40 sub accounts, the damage to the game's reputation I expect will FAR surpass any ego-destroying ass-whooping handed down by a clan. Or even multiple ass whoopings. God forbid casual gamer levels up to something good but all along Johnny sub-account is leveling up his "grief" account right along with him/her. Then comes the glorious day when all that work pays off and that jet, tank, gun, armor or whatever it was that casual gamer was working toward finally becomes available..only to be destroyed in the first five minutes by Johnny sub-account. I'm not even sure which would be worse..to lose something you know you can gain again or to lose something you never even had a chance to get. Poor casual gamer. Sad panda face.

Trust. Huge issue in team games. Clans..non issue. That's why they play together. But then again..You got your clan together, you got more people, you got more people... oh you are just gellin' on your full friends list! But I ask you..do you really know all these people? Or is it just a case of  "Yeah this guy is dope! add him to the clan!" So now what? You gonna micromanage every single player that joins? Might have to. You wanna meet everyone, one at a time, as they join your clan of 1K+? I guess you should probably let them know at your job that you are now a full time clan owner...so here is two weeks notice! No but really, if the clan numbers are even capped at a hundred, that's a hundred people you better KNOW and TRUST. Sub accounts..the bane of our existence. There is simply no answer.

Well No. But: What i see happening based on this situation is gonna be an added invisible "P2P" element:
"You want in the clan... We don't know you. You really have nothing of value for us except you being more boots for us on the ground. Don't know you, want to trust you, can't though, with alts its too much of a risk for us. So what we propose, if you REALLY wanna join our clan is... a DEPOSIT." That's right y'all. If Johnny sub-account wants in on your party in his pitiful attempt to infiltrate, the smartest thing you can do is make him pay to join. "OK Johnny..Go and get yourself..I dunno $100,000 ISK (just an example mind you) and transfer it to the clan leader and he will bank it. If you screw us now the only thing you are REALLY doing is losing your deposit. Because once we catch you..and we will catch you..We will kick you out, and spread your $100,000 ISK around to cover the damages and raise the deposit amount for the next poor guy/gal who comes down the pike." And then, since Johnny sub-account has played his card, it'll be pretty hard for him to join another clan. Clans talk. Naming and shaming WILL happen. As far as I can come up with, beyond having a very stringent recruitment process, that right there should do two things:

1. Filter out the occasional bag 'o douche.
2. Find you some loyal players. they will either be good because they won the money or they are serious because they put the money into the game to have the money.

Maybe you set yourself a time limit. Play for three months with no issues, deposit goes back to you. Maybe not. Maybe it's and in out thing. You come in, you pay..you quit with no drama? Here is your deposit back.
really this part is on you. But as far as I can tell, the inclusion of sub accounts will bring so much drama, that after a few weeks of hassle, the deposit issue will probably come up on it's own. It'll be the ONLY way to really figure out who is being real and who is just farting around. Any player with NO money after a month or so should be a pretty good indicator that the player doesn't know how to play, isn't that good yet or is using a sub and probably should be put under probationary watch. OK, that's probably way too long. I tried to keep it short. For those of you who made it this far, please don't mistake this as me saying the game will fail. My hopes are like yours..that it has legs and walks for a long long time. But I think we have all been in the trenches on some of this stuff since before MAG came out. It's probably not as bad as I put it up above, but then again, you never can tell.

34 comments:

  1. Free to Play + Unlimited PSN accounts is a problem. Would CCP limit the # of accounts from specific IPs? Doubt it since you would eliminated legitimate alternate accounts of people sharing PS3s.

    EVE requires a lot of time to upgrade a character, permanent time. Off the top of my head, I can see making the leveling and skill up system taking long enough that an alt account isn't feasible. Just how do you do it? You could have an alt with a decent loadout unlocked in a couple of hours in BF3. MAG was easy enough to get to lvl70 and be just as good as your main.

    Hopefully CCP makes a new character very noneffective against an old player and make it difficult to achieve that skill/ability. As for clan recruitments, I'd put a minimum skill level for recruitment. A time limit based on the chance the account is a main based on skills achieved (see 'certificates' in EVE).

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    1. I really like the minimum skill idea for recruiting clans.

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  2. I disagree with this mostly because of the point that jonny already made because "you would eliminated legitimate alternate accounts of people sharing PS3s"

    Also if people get screwed over by alts in their clans then its their own fault for not making their recruitment process secure enough. Spies will be inevitable, deal with it. Fight back instead of whining. I would feel bad for randoms since they would get screwed by this but it will hopefully make them seek out a clan to join.

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  3. good read. anyone with a brain knows this is true based on what alts did to MAG. which wasnt free #sayno2subs

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  4. +1 on this. limit alt accounts. make them pay for it. one free account would be good.

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  5. yes, yes and YES. jonny didnt u play MAG? unlimited alts will ruin everything. what dummy doesnt know that? comment about randoms getting screwed and joining clans probably dumbest thing i've ever heard.

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    1. I agree that alts potentially ruin games but was musing about the reality of trying to stop them.

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  6. we tend to agree with this^. Randoms who get screwed don't join clans. THEY QUIT.

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  7. have to side with the consolers on this one. seems blatantly imbalanced. We wont tolerate known imbalances, especially when they affect EvE.

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  8. The article would have been better with specific examples of how CCP should handle subs/alts.

    Any limits per PS3 can hurt players that share PS3s; my brother shares the same PS3 as me, and he is also very interested in Dust 514. Some PS3's might have 4 people that share it that require separate accounts, or maybe someone just wants to experiment with different things within the game with subs like I will probably do if I am able to with alt accounts. EVE's world is suppose to be brutal, full of espionage, sabotage, scamming, and a general lack of distrustfulness, and EVE managed to survive despite this. CCP should leave it to players to weed out the distrustful ones.

    I also disagree that sub-accounts killed MAG. MAG is still very much alive last time I checked, which was honestly surprising to me since I was expecting the game to die by the beginning of 2012. Even before Zipper made sub-accounts within one PSN account available purchase, alt accounts were never stopped, and knew many people that played MAG on various PSN accounts. Despite the prevalence of alternate PSN accounts, I never experienced infiltration/sabotage in a battle. The Shadow War was meaningless, no tangible rewards; I always longed for it to have tangible and meaningful results, and even fervently advocated for tying maps to contracts to achieve such an end. What's the point of faction loyalty if the war is over nothing?

    Dust 514 will have tangible assets, so I can see how sub-accounts or alts or whatever could hurt the game, but unlike MAG, you don't just join a faction just like that in Dust 514. You will most likely be screened and checked by the corp you want to join, and its even less likely that they will let someone into a high position with lots of espionage/theft/sabotage opportunities without trust, and if they don't be careful about who they let in, then it is partly their fault for not being more careful when they get screwed.

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    1. When we tried to do clan wars, ringers became a big problem. We collectively wanted to fight different clans, not the same clan with different names and tags. The shadow war didn't work but we tried to make the game into something more based around the clans we created.

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    2. Whether the clans overlapped or not, as long as you're fighting skilled players that work as a team, what does it matter?

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    3. "We collectively wanted to fight different clans, not the same clan with different names and tags."

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    4. If it is that important to you, then I see how its a problem, though I find it hard to believe finding clans without overlapping members was such a challenge. Especially since the alts/subs are labelled the MAG-killer.
      High player count, mean less chance of fighting the same players in different clans, and F2P will definitely insure and much higher player count than MAG.

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  9. MAG is alive? LOL! are u kidding? both DLC modes are barren and you wait 30 minutes for an Acquisiton game. the lag in DOM makes it almost unplayable when there are enough people. that leaves suppression and sabotage. MAG is dead and buried.

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  10. agree with Jonny re: ringers. we detailed them pretty heavily in our top 15 events in MAG list. was a big problem.

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  11. hate it for consolers that share, but seems pretty obvious that downside far outweighs the benefits. might just have to be a big boy and pony up and pay for a second account on the same machine.

    i'm an EvE player and spying is inevitable, but giving people free access to unlimited supply of accounts is bollocks.

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  12. you have literally no clue that all what you describe is a perfectly valid tactic in the new eden universe, so stop posting your butthurt shit and learn to adapt. Meta gaming is what makes EVE unique and what will make DUST unique

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  13. ^ apparently this genius didnt read the part where the guy broke down all the ways alt accounts are abused. thought PC gamers where supposed to be smart.

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    1. the same "abusing" of alt accounts is going on in EVE since the almost 10 years its been active now. its not abusing its using the meta game to its full potential, adapt or die.

      EVE Corps found effective ways against that, im sure you "smart" console gamers will have no problem then :)

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  14. LMAO welcome to New Eden you scrublords.

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  15. its not the same, idiot. we have API keys.

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    1. API keys doesnt safe you from anonymous alt characters/ spies try again noob.

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    2. u never know who you're talking to. i'd suggest being more careful. API keys and subs give us safeguards that consoles lack altogether with their wide open nature. I never agree with consolers but they're right this time. my alliance is powerful enough to deal with any foolishness CCP does, can u say the same?

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    3. Actually yes i can, but i dont see how relevant that is mister "im important in this spaceship game, better watch out anonymous person i might come after you"
      Subs give you 0 safeguard, and API only fends off the dumb. if i want to i can, easy as that.

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    4. again, dumbass. console games will have console issues. I trust console gamers to know about console problems. i'm an EvE player. ask me about EvE problems and i'll tell you. only a really dumb EvE player would think he knows more about a platform than the people who use it.

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    5. except that those so called "console issues" are all the same for eve and arent even console excluse, idk what you are on about.

      all i see here is little babbies worried that someone might grief them.
      new eden is not, and will never be fair. deal with it now and save yourself the tears later.

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    6. get it straight noob we grief people and power our ships on tears in Goonz, not the other way around. but there's a big difference between valid and broken. and youre a bigger idiot than you sound like if you think CCP always knows the difference.

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    7. instead of being all mad here, point me one thing out that is broken and not possible in eve in his text?

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  16. some of you need to realize that while Dust is part of new eden and eve, its still a console game that will have a majority of console games with console issues. abuse of alternate accounts is one of the biggest. remember, they tried to warn you.

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  17. Thanks for the feedback.

    For the record, I'm against UNRESTRICTED sub accounts.
    I thought the 20 dollar per entry would be a good balance between dedication and shenanigans.

    What do you guys think about the "deposit" suggestion?
    Is that going to fly? Could be a way for clans to generate revenue...

    Peace
    B

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  18. Making it F2P was a big smart move by CCP, but this is sadly the obvious side effect of it (cant legimately have F2P and restricted accounts me thinks). Unlimited free accounts will be abused, even the most cynical "IDGAF" mofos should be able to see that the potential of abuse this may have for the game down the road, it should be obvious. You can live with, it but it will certainly make it more senseless.

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  19. Been looking forward to this game and I can honestly say that some of these problems did fuck up M.A.G alt's are a problem even today and there's almost no way a smart player will be caught (untill it's to late) and becase of the nature of this game it could go downhill really quick. and to be honest no matter what you do it's gonna be a problem the ideas to pay a corp is a good one ( as a lot of greifers don't want to put that much time in just fuck with you) dust 514 is a connection between pc and ps3 and I hope what happened to M.A.G dosn't happen to dust as my clan plans to transfer to dust 514 . (btw wile some 'children' will do stupidness not all of us are that way i'm 16 myself.)

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